Friday, December 4, 2009

Unencumbered, numbered words

DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to convert anyone & my arguments do not all necessarily reflect my views, but may be the simple arguments against given points. DO NOT READ unless you are willing to see things from a different point of view and keep an open mind. Do not bother replying unless with factual and evidential as well as non-fallacious answers.

What causes hatred?

Many people seem to live under the notion that without faith, we are not human. Or that without faith, we are less than human, a second class of arrogant, narrow-minded, self-sufficient, ignorant, morally inferior and generally more stupid human beings.

But then, what makes us human?

Many people seem to live under the notion that Theists are ostracized, heavily victimized, cruelly misunderstood, the righteous underdogs, the poor victims of the arrogant and oppressing Atheists.

Quoted from Chuen's blog:
wh, are u implying that enlightenment is achieved by obeying the moral law?

No, i am not. I believe that you achieve enlightenment by arriving a balance between one's physical and spiritual self. According to Buddhism, there is a Noble Eightfold Path. We read this in Sejarah, guys.

It is believed that only through this can we reach a higher state of existence and achieve Nirvana.

The problem is, you won't necessarily achieve Enlightenment through this. Rather i think that the Noble Eightfold Path will come naturally as we approach Enlightenment in our own way. This would answer Jc's question. I believe that we achieve a moral law in the pursuit of Enlightenment, though it exists in each person regardless.

+1 to Xyun's comments there. I knew i liked that girl for a reason :P

Moral with Atheism & Theism

jsh: the moral law i think is beyond empathy. imagine someone quarreling, they dont talk about how they feel about each other but more of they expect a certain Standard out of human beings.

That doesn't really have much to do with moral laws, does it? Do you mean that moral laws and empathy are separate? If so, I disagree. I think that Moral Laws are a result of many Human psychological practices, one of which is Empathy. People DO argue about how they feel about each other, but you really have to define your Moral Law if you want to use it as a point. Till then, all discussions regarding Moral Laws are moot.

jsh: i dont think that we act out of fear of the lord. i think born within us. we have this law within us. and we expect others to have the same. like "first come first serve"

I think it is an illogical expectation that is at the root of Man's evil. The expectation for others to be the same as us. We shun those who are different. Homosexuals, Women, Blacks, Those of Different Beliefs, Those of different Moral standards, Those of different Levels of Intelligence. I cannot possibly respect anything that encourages such discrimination.

I think we all can agree that we are not all born with the same Moral compasses. We do not innately know that stealing is even stealing as the idea of 'Property' is one that only Mankind and proud animals have. What does the differences in our Natural Moral compasses tell you? I don't think that Man is born a moral creature. By experience, we realise that stealing hurts others. Some of us feel empathetic and our moral compass develops further. Some of us get a real kick out it.

jsh: of course the fear of the lord comes in when u see around us the power of nature. usually when i look at nature. i cant imagine that it all came about outta nothing so perfectly.

And yet it had to come out of something. Creationism is where many fallacies sprout in religion. Why should we fear the Lord? Is he a tyrant? Of course not. Would he unjustly punish us? Ah, now here we teeter over the semantics of what is 'just'. Why don't we strive to be like God instead of just revering Him? Wouldn't that ultimately lead to a better world? It seems to me that a loving God would not require respect, love or even acknowledgement to continue loving his children.

It is logically inaccurate to deduce that God exists because something as complex beautiful and mathematically perfect as Nature exists. Then you would have to say that something as complex & perfect as God exists because something else created God. Why is it that God can come into existence by itself and Nature cannot?

Just because you can't imagine something, doesn't mean it's not true. After all, this is a favourite argument in support of Theism. It applies to Atheism as well.

Think about it:
What good things would a Theist do that an Atheist wouldn't?
What bad thing would a Theist do that an Atheist wouldn't?

jsh: as to where i am going? i dont know, lol. but saying god law operates on fear of the afterlife and divine punishment. is not very accurate.

To separate Divine punishment from God is contradictory to the Christian religion. How is it right that many people are selective towards the part of religion that is most convenient?

I like what one of the Priests of somewhere i forgot said:

Reporter: "Surely you cannot believe that there were talking animals and Noah took aboard two of every species of animals on Earth. There are hundreds and thousands of known species, many more back then that weren't extinct that couldn't possibly fit in the Ark whose dimensions we know?"
Priest: "I believe in the Bible wholeheartedly. That's what is written there and i believe in it."

Now, that guy was not arrogant. I disagree with his beliefs, but i respect him as he seems to be a true practitioner of Christianity. He doesn't try to prove his point with fallacies. He just practices his belief without a sense of superiority. Something i can't say about many others i've seen.

jsh: i think god operates on my previous point in which we are so amazed about the wonders of life. and that he has blessed us with so much. rain wind water food

Alright. Here i'm going to bring up points that many will not find pleasing. How are you so sure that God provided us with the 'wonders of life'? I'm not even going to bring up the fallacies here.

Okay, the question is, What makes your Christian God more right than any other God? It blatantly calls others 'False idols', as though somehow it is different from the rest. What about Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism.......? If you want people to believe in Christianity, I understand. But you cannot call the other religions/ beliefs false and not expect a reaction.

Think about it, Christianity claims to be the truth. So do other religions. Christianity is no better nor more valid & true than Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism or even Animism.
So then, if choosing the wrong one leads to eternal damnation, and all of them are equally attractive and evidential, then choosing the right one is a matter of luck. And with a little bad luck, you are eternally damned, according to Christianity.

No one religion is more righteous than another.

Bertrand Russell is mocked in a video with his own quotes. How i wish i could mock the mocker with his own quotes too, but on the topic:

Atheism encourages the foundation of Unyielding Despair...?

People see atheism as the opposition of theism, due to the name. But as a matter of two different ideas, theism could be said to be the opposition of atheism. So don't go victimizing yourself, Theists.

Now on the matter that atheism is the foundation of unyielding despair is a matter of perception. Atheists generally do not live in depression. Honestly, it is not easy to become an atheist. To become and atheist, one has to accept that his life probably starts and ends solely in the physical world. I generally respect any atheist because he/she has come into an acceptance with that. The conversion into atheism is one that requires a lot of reflection and critical thought, whether or not their philosophy is right.

Certain people blame the high suicide rates on depressed atheists as their lack of faith takes away their meaning in life. Let me just say that 'You don't need faith to find a meaning in life.'
Their inaccurate is assessment is completely unfounded with no statistical backing nor logical backing other than that the said people are incapable of finding their own meaning in life outside of faith. The poor people who say things like that are grasping at straws.

You want statistics? I'll give you statistics.
Lithuania ranks #1 among all countries for suicide rates with 68.1 Males and 12.9 females per 100,000 citizens per year. 79% of Lithuanians belong to the Roman Catholic Church.
Source: World Health Organization. Accurate as of 2008.

Now, you'll probably think that i'm being biased towards atheism right now. The truth is, i am an agnostic theist. Though you can probably tell that i largely disagree with many religious practices. The reason i support atheism is because i've yet to hear one of them say "Your God does not exist." That would be arrogant and fallacious, too. However, all too often do i hear theists say ALL AROUND ME:" Your beliefs are wrong."

Now, the one thing this discussion is lacking is a specific Topic. So well, this post is just a general inquiry regarding the public's views on Atheism & Theism.

Einstein vs Professor
Finally, you all remember that argument between Einstein & his professor? I found many significant flaws in Einstein's argument and was at disbelief that Einstein's logic was so flawed. Guess what? It never occurred. Just some hoodlums abusing Einstein's name with their immature thoughts. If ya'll want me to show my points rebuking theirs, i might post it up some time...

This one's actually from Einstein:

An abridgement of the letter from Albert Einstein to Eric Gutkind from Princeton in January 1954, translated from German by Joan Stambaugh.

... I read a great deal in the last days of your book, and thank you very much for sending it to me. What especially struck me about it was this. With regard to the factual attitude to life and to the human community we have a great deal in common.

... The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the priviliege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolisation. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.

Now that I have quite openly stated our differences in intellectual convictions it is still clear to me that we are quite close to each other in essential things, ie in our evalutations of human behaviour. What separates us are only intellectual 'props' and 'rationalisation' in Freud's language. Therefore I think that we would understand each other quite well if we talked about concrete things. With friendly thanks and best wishes

Yours, A. Einstein

**End of excerpt**



  1. Sic Semper Tyrannis! Read the god delusion for more ;) many people misunderstand einstein's belief. einstein does not believe in a personal god, but rather a higher power like nature. that is all. nothing more nothing less.

  2. We live amongst Christians, dude...Careful with the quotes haha. But seriously, it annoys me to no end when people misquote intellectual people. For a while, i was disgusted with Einstein's apparent lack of intelligence with that pathetic argument. Then i was disgusted with myself for doubting such a genius when i found out t'was fake.

    Lend me the book, man... Btw, a link to the Dawkins-Lennox debate is on Jsh's blog. Personally, i love seeing Hitchens in action. Total pwnage XP